Helmetless Riders

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Comment by Luke Revolution 10 hours ago

Drop speeds, ditch helmets, cycling experts say:

"Bike use has risen from just 5 per cent of the German capital's population in 1990 to today's levels, where bikes outnumber cars in some neighbourhoods. Remarkably, the big leap has occurred with a corresponding 38 per cent drop in the cyclist injury rate, according to the Brussels-based European Cycling Federation."

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/drop-speeds-ditch-helmets-cycling...

Comment by Raymond yesterday

I've decided to continue this topic over at http://www.brisbanecyclist.com/group/helmetlessriders/forum/topics/... - hope that's the right thing to do.

Comment by Ride2Wk yesterday

Sorry in Part 1 I didn't finish a sentence - "In the video the author states that at the driveway and the cross street"... cars have right of way. That is the incorrect part that I'm trying to highlight.

Comment by Ride2Wk yesterday

Part 2

Some of you may have read or heard of reports that show it's statistically safer to ride on-road than on shared paths? It's the kids hit at side streets by cars turning in or out of side streets that skews this result & is probably due to this mistaken right of way situation. Even the police often report it wrongly as the kid failing to give way before crossing the street. This is not just little kids but up to teenagers (& adults). Most kids (or teenagers etc. with iPhones) are not very situationally aware and don't think to look over their shoulder for a car turning left into the side street. While the driver just expects the kid to "stop, look 3 times & give way to cars" (or in many cases the driver probably didn't even notice them before the driver slowed down and cut the cyclist off just like they do to you in your on-road bike lane!).

After all that, my key points are -

1/ Take a good look at the road rules, especially 72-75 & the definitions of what is a "vehicle" & a "road".

2/ Whether driving or riding, make sure you give way to pedestrians & bikes correctly at intersections (& refer them to the road rules 72 & 73 if they are surprised) and,

3/ In a safe manner, take the right of way when it's really yours rather than just giving way to cars because they are scary & big.

It's not much different to "taking the lane" where necessary. The more people that do it, the more other people will get used to it and hopefully eventually understand.

Comment by Ride2Wk yesterday

Part 1

No offence taken & I hope I give none. I think your "tombstones" indicates a bit of emotion clouding the issue. Did I say that the kids should just ride across the road by themselves - no. The parents however can make it clear to motorists that they expect the cars to give way correctly but the parents don't even know the road rules. I said -

Cyclists and pedestrians need to know the road rules and actually take the right of way (but be prepared to take evasive action).

In the video the author states that at the driveway and the cross street. That is the incorrect part that I'm trying to highlight. (unsuccessfully it seems, sorry I can't communicate it better) Too many people, even cyclists, don't know the law and get the right of way completely wrong. This has led to the situation where cyclists and kids are not as safe on the roads as they should be (but are in places like Holland) and whether we like or not they are being hit too often.

I have 2 young kids and I don't throw them out in front of cars at intersections to get the cars to stop. I do however start to cross first to "encourage" the cars to legally give way first and then let the kids follow. But if a car doesn't look like stopping then I'm ready to ensure the kids don't get hit. But the strange thing is that it's actually rare for a car to fail to give way when I'm insisting on crossing and I have kids with me. (When I'm by myself is when they are more likely to ignore me.)

I wouldn't expect just 1 person to be a "one man motorist education campaigner" but if every cyclist (& there are a great many of them) did know the road rules and stood up for themselves (in a way that is relatively safe) people would soon learn. I think it's a bit like "taking the lane".

I totally agree with you on the policing - that is 1 of 2 areas where road safety first failed & has failed for so many decades that even the current police were brought up incorrectly believing the cars have right of way on any section of black bitumen. (The other area is I think social expectations but that's a whole other topic.)

Comment by Big Steve yesterday

Yep... I'm sorry Ride2work I don't agree either.  While you are right according to the rule of the law I'm really enjoying my life at the moment and don't want to be flattened.  My slogan is "I'm no one man motorist education campaigner".  I've done over 20,000k on the bike now in just over two years and I've found this the most stress free and safe way to travel.  I will claim lanes and the likes but only where absolutely necessary and if given the choice will go another way.  I also plan on not using my wife or children to test the strength of the law either.

Comment by Aaron Ball yesterday

Ride2Wk, I've taken a few deep breaths and will edit this so it comes across as least offensive as I can.  Children and kids should NOT step out onto the road to exercise their letter-of-the-law rights.  Little children-sized tombstones emblazoned with "I was legally in the right" are tombstones nonetheless.  There's a lot of factors and bad social decisions that have delivered us at this point where people don't trust drivers to know (or obey) the road rules and step out in front of 1.5 tonnes bearing down on them.   Happy to hear you do it, occasionally I might do it too, but I don't think the people in the video can be criticised for not forcing their right of way.  Cars should slow down and make it clear they are giving right of way, but for a number of factors those cars don't and , as I said, we are now reduced to a 'might makes right' mentality irrespective ofwhat the actual road rules say.  Perhaps the biggest factor is police failing to ensure compliance with all the road rules, as well as focussing on speeding and drink driving etc, but that in itself is no doubt a symptom of misplaced resources.  I wonder how many traffic patrols could be funded to ensure existing roads operate correctly, for the price of a tunnel.

Comment by 5abi yesterday

Aaron and Ride2Wk - interestingly the problem that you guys have highlighted is also related to what Doc had to say. If cars were unsafe, people would drive much more carefully. This would be very beneficial to those not in cars. The other problem is cars have gotten bigger and heavier - leading to the might makes right problem. When high gas prices force people to drive smaller, lighter cars made of plastic rather than steel, this will also increase safety for non car occupants. It will also lead to more non-drivers and consequently greater awareness of their rights.

Doc-you mentioned freakonomics. I'll go 1 step further. Chapter 1 of Steven Landsburg's book 'The Armchair Economist'. If you like it enough, I highly recommend to read the whole book, and his other book 'More Sex is Safer Sex'. I think it is compulsory reading for EVERYONE. These books make you think about the world a bit differently. (Warning-sometimes when you read his work you think he is off his rocker, but if you follow his arguments they actually make logical sense)

A bit of an aside-it is my belief that this is exactly what economics is. Stock markets and interest rates are the finance field, with the application of economics. Economics is simply the study of why people make the choices they do.

Comment by Ride2Wk yesterday

Aaron, "Might makes right" only works when subservient people are too sacred to even try to step foot onto the road. Cars are always going to go if they think they can get away with it if the pedestrian or bike doesn't make any effort to take the right of way. Drivers do actually stop when I stare them in the eye and step onto the road a reasonable distance in front of them (so they do have time to stop & protect their precious duco). Although if I have my bike some have yelled out the window to which I normally reply "learn road rules 72-75". In the video they didn't even try to take the right of way and clearly from their comments they didn't even know they actually have the right of way. LIke I said earlier they need to learn the real road rules.

Comment by Doc Embrey on Sunday

I didn't see the Broncos-Storm game on Friday, and I share your wonder at the risks taken in football sometimes. However, as in many things in life, the reality is often stranger than you think.

If I may go on a bit of a tangent here, let me tell you a tale ...

I often listen to a podcast called Freakonomics, which is some fellows attempt to apply economics to stuff that economics would not normal be applied to. It's not exactly scientific method, but is often surprising and thought provoking.

Anyway, a particular episode (The Dangers of Safety) was talking about something called the 'Peltzman Effect'. In a nutshell, the 'Peltzman Efffect' is a conjecture that making something safer can lead to people taking more risks. The podcast is worth a listen, but in short, it describes a car maker making a car that is 'so safe' you can survive a crash at high speed. A driver knowing that he/she will survive, takes more risks and drives faster. The effect is that making the car safer results in more dangerous driving behaviour - the 'Peltzman Effect'. The podcast goes on to interview American Football players, and seeks their opinion on what would happen if they stopped wearing helmets (American Football does mandate helmet use). Mind you, The 'Peltzman Effect' is not proven (or even well studied from what I can see). It was very interesting and thought provoking though.

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